Masonic Forum Home Search Members Calendar Who's On Welcome Guest ( Login | Register ) Recent PostsRecent Posts Popular TopicsPopular Topics Home » General » General Masonic Discussion » Selling the craft 105 posts, Page 9 of 11«««7891011»»» Selling the craft Rate Topic Display Mode Topic Options Author Message M PerrottM Perrott Posted 02/01/2010 01:40 Fellow Group: Forum Members Last Login: 2 days ago @ 22:58 Posts: 292, Visits: 2,190 Mike Martin (02/01/2010)[quote][b]Sorry but I'm from the South of England, I've never heard of a "Loyalist" or "Orange" march hereabouts so I 'm not following the logic. I know they happen in NI and may have happened in Scotland but England and Wales really? When? Same as me Mike, I am sort of transplanted west London, myself. However, despite not being able to provide numbers or dates, I am aware that Manchester and Liverpool etc have visible Loyalist communities, and I am reliably informed but don't know personally, one of the Manchester soccer teams has a strong Orange/ loyalist fanbase, with songs to match. But that is not the point, the news networks are universal, and the marches hit the papers and tv screens for all the wrong reasons with alarming regularity. On the rare occasion I showed my aprons to an acquintance a few years ago I was asked if I was a Loyalist. Quite ironic as my traced ancestry goes right back to Sir John Perrott, the documented instrument of Queen Elizabeths will in Ireland and alleged illegitimate son of Henry VIII . In fact, even though I am both a protestant and a royalist the Orangemen and their cause embarrass me.As previously mentioned I'm not specifically suggesting parades, they were referenced to illustrate a reality of the Craft's history that was being ignored. However, going by the parade at Beamish a few years ago (when the Museum's Masonic exhibit was opened) I don't think there would be any problems finding volunteers, I myself wouldn't be adverse to it. Thats great, but of the rank and file, non Provincial or Met Grand Lodge dark blues, how many would attend other than you? If it is majority gold braid marching, what message would that send out to those not in the know? Elite, wealthy, and old need only apply? Post #16930 Mike MartinMike Martin Posted 02/01/2010 01:40 Past Master Group: Administrators Last Login: Yesterday @ 23:54 Posts: 1,394, Visits: 4,059 M Perrott (02/01/2010)Does it have to be an all or nothing scenario? Totally open or completely concealed. What about, tell if you want to, remain non-disclosed (i don't like the term "secret" it has dubious overtones) if you desire and no big song and dance or in your face strutting about?It absolutely doesn't have to be all or nothing. In my head I see it playing out as just more of our members being like me, open about their membership. I have a S&C on my crash helmet, on my car and I tend to wear one on whichever jacket I'm wearing (noone ever notices the one in my ring) and I am happy to talk about it with my friends and family, that's it.M Perrott (02/01/2010)As for prospective candidates, if they really want to know, they will find a way. Like for instance the first approach I made: leaving a letter at a Masonic Hall asking anyone that was a mason that knew of my place of employment or knew me by acquaintance to get in touch. At the time, that method worked very well.I've related my tale here many times before but it took me nearly 2 years to get into my Lodge, 6 months after I found out that I had a friend who had been a member for some time who I could have asked to propose me. If I hadn''t have already had a long-standing interest I would have probably given up and never joined. MikeThe Freemasons' Grand Charity My Mother Lodge website Join or just visit my Masonic Web RingSee my BALLS here Post #16931 Tom CherupTom Cherup Posted 02/01/2010 05:04 Past Master Group: Moderators Last Login: Yesterday @ 16:42 Posts: 1,012, Visits: 2,845 multisync (01/01/2010)If your Lodge prefers to practice it's Masonry in full view of the general public I for one would not be a member of your Lodge. No offence, it just doesn't sit with my own view of how the Craft should conduct itself. I don't need validation from intruders and cowens, which is what I perceve all this openness and parading is about? Mike Martin (02/01/2010)Just to make something very clear I am not in favour of "public" Lodge meetings (which seems to be your take) but in openess from our members to non-members. The point about the "parades" that the Craft has carried out in the past was to show you that you are not correct when you claim that Masonry has somehow been secretive until only recently, in fact the opposite is correct. Up until the 1940s Freemasonry in England was a normal everyday thing in the public's perception and it was the events of the 80s and 90s that finally persuaded Grand Lodge that the Wartime "secrecy" was actually damaging not helping and needed to be got rid of. Maybe I should clear some things up. I should say we work with two books one for Rituals, the other Book of Public Ceremonies. The Ritual is for closed meetings Degrees and Business meetings, opening and closing the lodge, used the same way as you do. The other is a Book of Public Ceremonies. In this book you could not find Steps, Words, Signs, Grips, or Tokens, but has in it Funeral Service, Memorial Service, as well as Installation of the Master and Officers. This is the only book that has the Installations in it. The Installation meeting is opened in private, and the Grand Master allows the Installed Master to close the Installation by the Grand Master's Proxy at the rap of the gavel in public. I hope that this clears the air. Tom Cherup Olive Branch Lodge #542 Dearborn, Michigan Olive Branch's web site Detroit Masonic Temple Post #16933 multisyncmultisync Posted 02/01/2010 08:30 Journeyman Group: Forum Members Last Login: Yesterday @ 05:56 Posts: 135, Visits: 1,024 Tom Cherup (02/01/2010)Maybe I should clear some things up. I should say we work with two books one for Rituals, the other Book of Public Ceremonies. The Ritual is for closed meetings Degrees and Business meetings, opening and closing the lodge, used the same way as you do.The other is a Book of Public Ceremonies. In this book you could not find Steps, Words, Signs, Grips, or Tokens, but has in it Funeral Service, Memorial Service, as well as Installation of the Master and Officers. This is the only book that has the Installations in it. The Installation meeting is opened in private, and the Grand Master allows the Installed Master to close the Installation by the Grand Master's Proxy at the rap of the gavel in public.I hope that this clears the air. I kinda guessed that would be the case.However perhaps I am being naive here but I simply don't see the need to have an installation ceremony for the general public? 3954 Post #16934 multisyncmultisync Posted 02/01/2010 08:54 Journeyman Group: Forum Members Last Login: Yesterday @ 05:56 Posts: 135, Visits: 1,024 Mike Martin (02/01/2010)[quote]It absolutely doesn't have to be all or nothing. No, but it's thin end of the wedge stuff. Some here are looking towards TV adverts In my head I see it playing out as just more of our members being like me, open about their membership. I have a S&C on my crash helmet, on my car and I tend to wear one on whichever jacket I'm wearing (noone ever notices the one in my ring) and I am happy to talk about it with my friends and family, that's it.That's always been the case with certain members willing to overtly disclose their membership by various means.. However the thread isn't about a 2be1ask1 bumper sticker I've related my tale here many times before but it took me nearly 2 years to get into my Lodge, 6 months after I found out that I had a friend who had been a member for some time who I could have asked to propose me. If I hadn''t have already had a long-standing interest I would have probably given up and never joined. The old "seek and ye shall find" springs to mind....I too knew no one, (not even when I was given a list of members and asked if I recognised anyone). Previously I was invited to ask but after 18 months waiting for it to progress, I gave up and sought out my own membership. it was no biggie for me to seek out the details I needed.. so both you and I in our state of darkness managed to gather sufficient gumption to sort it out. Are we true masters of the universe, Reptilian shapeshifting NWO types? Or just a couple of blokes who picked up the Goddamn phone?I wonder do we really need anyone who has to be spoonfed all the way in and ponder if, that by making it too easy to join, makes too easy to leave? 3954 Post #16935 Alan CampbellAlan Campbell Posted 02/01/2010 11:51 Past Master Group: Forum Members Last Login: Yesterday @ 19:56 Posts: 1,101, Visits: 1,343 Selling the craft isn't just about public processions, it is also about education. My own mother in law still doesn't fully trust masons, even although her son in law is one. This must be to do with lack of education of whar freemasonry is about, what we are and we we are not. Going to Mark's point of being confused with the orange order, i do believe that we still have a problem up here with regards to this sitution and this is maybe part of the problem with very few roman catholics in scotland being members of the craft. That is changing slowly but it is very slowly.As for parades, i don't think there is a major building in the new town of Edinburgh that the freemasons didn't lay the foundation stone. In fact the new infirmary had a parade of over 3,000 masons. now that can't be just the rank and file. Post #16936 lauderdalelauderdale Posted 02/01/2010 11:51 Excellent Master Group: Forum Members Last Login: 04/09/2010 18:37 Posts: 2,238, Visits: 4,272 Thanks Bro Tom. I was aware that in some US GLs there was an Open Installation Ceremony, more of a social/family event, but that the Inner Working was still Freemasons Only. My own Masonic body has some untyled Open Ceremonies which non-Masons can attend but like other GLs and GOs our main Masonic Ceremonies are for duly qualified Brethren only according to their Degree. Like Bro Mike I do not hide my affiliation. I wear an S&Q ring, a Forget-me-Not lapel badge etc, all my friends and my co-workers know that I am "On the Square". However I can fully appreciate that there are Brethren who need or wish to keep their membership to themselves so any Parades, Public events etc should be as voluntary as any other Masonic activity such as Ladies Nights, Stalls at Country Fairs, etc. Participate if you wish, stay away if you don't.A good start IMO would be for The PGMs to attend in Full Regalia and to lay a wreath on Rememberance Sunday at the local war memorial at the principal city or town in their Province, with other Chains doing likewise in other locations, with those Brethren who wish to accompany them doing so. Perhaps in smaller villages etc the Master (or a PM) of the local Lodge could do so? This is only a suggestion and there may be better ideas. Freemasonry is known about. It is NOT a "Secret Society" but a Society with Secrets. The problem is that there is too much in the way of spurious knowledge unfavourable to The Craft in the Public Domain, as a result of anti-Masonic books, newpaper articles, plays etc on the TV. The maintenance of unneccessary secrecy long past WW2 has not helped in this regard. Post #16937 lauderdalelauderdale Posted 02/01/2010 12:21 Excellent Master Group: Forum Members Last Login: 04/09/2010 18:37 Posts: 2,238, Visits: 4,272 The Orange Order? I can understand Bro Alan's comments being Scots born myself and having lived all of my childhood in that country. The Orange Parades in June to August were a commonplace in Glasgow and the surrounding area. There is also an abiding, albeit erroneous, preception in the minds of many Roman Catholics in Scotland that "The Masonic" is just another part of "The Orange".However, here in England this is not a problem. I do understand that the Orange Order has Lodges in England but it is far far smaller than in Ulster or Scotland and very low profile. Down here the two organisations are not seen to be connected and there are many RCs who are also Freemasons here in England, so I can't see Masonic Marches being misunderstood in this regard as they could be in Scotland.A thought occurs. In 2013 it will be the 200th Anniversary of UGLE. No doubt there will be a large Meeting in celebration thereof, possibly at the Royal Albert Hall as was the case with the Inauguration of the London Metropolitan Grand Lodge? Why not have a Public Procession of Brethren in their Regalia to the Hall to mark this occasion? Post #16938 zambukzambuk Posted 02/01/2010 13:35 Apprentice Group: Forum Members Last Login: 30/06/2010 00:52 Posts: 44, Visits: 333 Our G/Lodge here in Sydney has recently commissioned a book "It's No Secret..Real Men Wear Aprons" that gives a brief history of the development of Freemasonry in NSW, that commenced around 1788 with the travelling Irish Warrants of the Royal Marines sent to guard our convict ancestors. (I guess we can honestly claim that Australians are of the best character ,as we had the best Judges in England!!) Interspersed with a brief Masonic biography of some of our famous sportsmen, Prime Ministers, several VC holders and others are chapters on our philosophy, regalia, Lodge Rooms etc. The book was released just after Dan Brown's book "The Lost Symbol" and will be available in most of the larger bookshops around the country. The book costs $aud 29.95 plus post, and details are available on the G/L website http://www.uglnsw.freemasonry.org.au where you will find the link to the Museum of Freemasonry for the book. ISBN: 978-0-646-52446-7 Our G.M. has also conducted a TV interview (in his full Regalia) in one of the recently refurbished Lodge Rooms in our Sydney G/L building. Freemasons in NSW and other States are also to the fore in promoting Men's Health, with many high profile public seminars held across the states. Whenever my three Craft Lodges take part in annual community events, we proudly wear tee shirts and caps with the Freemason's Logo. We take part in Christmas Hamper packing for our more unfortunate citizens, and the Charity Bed races at one of our larger public hospitals, and there is a monthly "Feeding the Needy" held by our Canberra cousins. In every case, we promote our Craft with passion and correct information. IMHO, it is imperative that we publicise our wonderful institution to the widest possible audience, using whatever means are available, both to dispel groundless rumours and inuendo, and also to attract Candidates. cheers zambuk WM Lodge Thespian Lewis No.804 IG Lodge Carlton Kogarah No.305, Treas.Lodge Concord Technology No.432 Treas. St Andrew Phoenix RAC No.2 Treas. City of Sydney RAC of R&I No.101 PGStd Royal Order of Scotland - PGL of NSW 30° A&A Scottish Rite - Province of NSW DGIW USGC of NSW & ACT PDGDC UGL of NSW & ACT I'd get Divorced if I joined any more! Post #16939 sojournersojourner Posted 02/01/2010 14:54 Master Group: Forum Members Last Login: Yesterday @ 17:46 Posts: 412, Visits: 1,798 I am very proud to be a Freemason. I have a couple of emblems on my car (Mark, Chapter and KT's, and I wear a Masonic ring. I thus don't exactly hide my association. On the other hand public parades and ceremonies are just so much not my thing. There must therefore be a compromise between those who want to "take out adverts on TV and in the Press" and those who would not wish to take part in such an overt display. There is a movement towards more "openness" and trying to be "all fluffy" and please everyone. I view such trends with caution. Over exposure can have the opposite effect to that intended. As an example I would cite the Royal Family and Parliament. Do we really have any more respect for either after prolonged in-depth media attention?The decline in numbers of the Craft has many reasons. One in my view is the decline in public standards. A sizeable number of society now view a good night out, as a matter of getting "blootered" and rolling about in the gutter. They are not concerned with esoteric thoughts or moral self improvement.If we take an honest look at all our friends, colleagues, family and acquaintances, how many of them (who are not already Masons) would you be prepared to confidently propose or second, secure in the belief that they would "ultimately reflect honour on your choice". Thus one factor is the declining number of people worthy of becoming Freemasons.I am against the trend in some quarters, that numbers of candidates are everything. Quality, not quantity is the essential element. Turning Lodges into Masonic "sausage factories", will not in the long term achieve the desired effect. If Masonry is going through a period of adjustment, and we end up with fewer Lodges, then so be it. Better that than compromise the principles on which the Order is founded.Just my personal twopence worth. Roy L."SELUME PROFERRE" Post #16940 « Prev Topic | Next Topic » 105 posts, Page 9 of 11«««7891011»»» Reading This Topic Active Users: 0 (0 guests, 0 members, 0 anonymous members) Forum Moderators: TFM Admin, Mike Martin, Stu Thorpe, Tom Cherup Forum Jump... ---------------- Forum Home Search Members List Calendar Who's Online ---------------- Site Announcements |-- Announcements General |-- Greetings to our New Forumites |-- General Masonic Discussion |-- Masonic History (Legend -V- Fact) |-- Ritual - Esoteric & Symbols |-- Travellers' Diary & Dates |-- The Reading/Watching Room |-- The Appendant Degrees and Orders |-- Feminine & Co-Masonry |-- Knobs & Excrescences All times are GMT, Time now is 4:19am Powered By InstantForum.NET v4.1.4 © 2010 Execution: 0.109. 11 queries. Compression Disabled.
Sorry but I'm from the South of England, I've never heard of a "Loyalist" or "Orange" march hereabouts so I 'm not following the logic. I know they happen in NI and may have happened in Scotland but England and Wales really? When?
Same as me Mike, I am sort of transplanted west London, myself. However, despite not being able to provide numbers or dates, I am aware that Manchester and Liverpool etc have visible Loyalist communities, and I am reliably informed but don't know personally, one of the Manchester soccer teams has a strong Orange/ loyalist fanbase, with songs to match.
But that is not the point, the news networks are universal, and the marches hit the papers and tv screens for all the wrong reasons with alarming regularity. On the rare occasion I showed my aprons to an acquintance a few years ago I was asked if I was a Loyalist. Quite ironic as my traced ancestry goes right back to Sir John Perrott, the documented instrument of Queen Elizabeths will in Ireland and alleged illegitimate son of Henry VIII . In fact, even though I am both a protestant and a royalist the Orangemen and their cause embarrass me.
Thats great, but of the rank and file, non Provincial or Met Grand Lodge dark blues, how many would attend other than you? If it is majority gold braid marching, what message would that send out to those not in the know? Elite, wealthy, and old need only apply?
In my head I see it playing out as just more of our members being like me, open about their membership. I have a S&C on my crash helmet, on my car and I tend to wear one on whichever jacket I'm wearing (noone ever notices the one in my ring) and I am happy to talk about it with my friends and family, that's it.
MikeThe Freemasons' Grand Charity My Mother Lodge website Join or just visit my Masonic Web RingSee my BALLS here
I kinda guessed that would be the case.
However perhaps I am being naive here but I simply don't see the need to have an installation ceremony for the general public?
It absolutely doesn't have to be all or nothing.
No, but it's thin end of the wedge stuff. Some here are looking towards TV adverts
That's always been the case with certain members willing to overtly disclose their membership by various means.. However the thread isn't about a 2be1ask1 bumper sticker
The old "seek and ye shall find" springs to mind....
I too knew no one, (not even when I was given a list of members and asked if I recognised anyone). Previously I was invited to ask but after 18 months waiting for it to progress, I gave up and sought out my own membership. it was no biggie for me to seek out the details I needed.. so both you and I in our state of darkness managed to gather sufficient gumption to sort it out. Are we true masters of the universe, Reptilian shapeshifting NWO types? Or just a couple of blokes who picked up the Goddamn phone?
I wonder do we really need anyone who has to be spoonfed all the way in and ponder if, that by making it too easy to join, makes too easy to leave?
Going to Mark's point of being confused with the orange order, i do believe that we still have a problem up here with regards to this sitution and this is maybe part of the problem with very few roman catholics in scotland being members of the craft. That is changing slowly but it is very slowly.
As for parades, i don't think there is a major building in the new town of Edinburgh that the freemasons didn't lay the foundation stone. In fact the new infirmary had a parade of over 3,000 masons. now that can't be just the rank and file.
Like Bro Mike I do not hide my affiliation. I wear an S&Q ring, a Forget-me-Not lapel badge etc, all my friends and my co-workers know that I am "On the Square". However I can fully appreciate that there are Brethren who need or wish to keep their membership to themselves so any Parades, Public events etc should be as voluntary as any other Masonic activity such as Ladies Nights, Stalls at Country Fairs, etc. Participate if you wish, stay away if you don't.
A good start IMO would be for The PGMs to attend in Full Regalia and to lay a wreath on Rememberance Sunday at the local war memorial at the principal city or town in their Province, with other Chains doing likewise in other locations, with those Brethren who wish to accompany them doing so. Perhaps in smaller villages etc the Master (or a PM) of the local Lodge could do so?
This is only a suggestion and there may be better ideas. Freemasonry is known about. It is NOT a "Secret Society" but a Society with Secrets. The problem is that there is too much in the way of spurious knowledge unfavourable to The Craft in the Public Domain, as a result of anti-Masonic books, newpaper articles, plays etc on the TV. The maintenance of unneccessary secrecy long past WW2 has not helped in this regard.
However, here in England this is not a problem. I do understand that the Orange Order has Lodges in England but it is far far smaller than in Ulster or Scotland and very low profile. Down here the two organisations are not seen to be connected and there are many RCs who are also Freemasons here in England, so I can't see Masonic Marches being misunderstood in this regard as they could be in Scotland.
A thought occurs. In 2013 it will be the 200th Anniversary of UGLE. No doubt there will be a large Meeting in celebration thereof, possibly at the Royal Albert Hall as was the case with the Inauguration of the London Metropolitan Grand Lodge? Why not have a Public Procession of Brethren in their Regalia to the Hall to mark this occasion?
The decline in numbers of the Craft has many reasons. One in my view is the decline in public standards. A sizeable number of society now view a good night out, as a matter of getting "blootered" and rolling about in the gutter. They are not concerned with esoteric thoughts or moral self improvement.If we take an honest look at all our friends, colleagues, family and acquaintances, how many of them (who are not already Masons) would you be prepared to confidently propose or second, secure in the belief that they would "ultimately reflect honour on your choice". Thus one factor is the declining number of people worthy of becoming Freemasons.
I am against the trend in some quarters, that numbers of candidates are everything. Quality, not quantity is the essential element. Turning Lodges into Masonic "sausage factories", will not in the long term achieve the desired effect. If Masonry is going through a period of adjustment, and we end up with fewer Lodges, then so be it. Better that than compromise the principles on which the Order is founded.
Just my personal twopence worth.
"SELUME PROFERRE"
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